Episode 6 — Does Space Have a Logistics Problem? with Matteo Lorenzoni

0:00Hello and good day. I have another exciting episode for you today on the Space Curious podcast. As ever, I'm your host Arm Terry and I have with me here the guest Matteo Lorenzone. Now, he is the director of orbital access at Dorbit. And the episode for today is we're going to be talking about space has a logistic problem or does has does it have a logistics problem? So, thank you for joining me on the Space Co podcast. Just a quick introduction for the guests. For this episode, we're going to explore something that most people outside the space industry rarely think about.

0:45Getting into into space is only part of the journey. Now, what happens when we are there? As the space economy grows, we'll need increasingly sophisticated infrastructure to transport, position, service, and manage space in orbit. Matteo, welcome to the show. Welcome to the podcast. I'm so delighted to have you here. If you may start just by telling people who you are and what you do. Thank you for having me here. Very happy and very glad. So as you started, I am Mate Loren and I'm the business unit director of the orbital access business unit. In the orbit, we have three main business unit and the one that I lead is the one that takes care

1:30of all the transportation services and logistics service in space. And this is pretty much what the orbit started doing before beginning the big the orbit that everybody knows. So I've been following these in the last seven years and I'm very happy to be here and to answer all of your questions. >> Superb and fantastic. Now we're going to start because this is a space curious podcast. So everyone is going to be curious. So the first thing that many people now are starting to mention to me is ask how did the people that you interviewed get into space? So not actually in space but in the space sector. So how did you get into the sector? So it's a very curious story because uh both my father and my sisters works in

2:18the space sector and so when I was a kid I grow up with always talking about space everywhere. So when I arrived to university I had only one thing clear in my mind. I will not work in the space sector because I spent all of my life about space and I want to do something different with respect to all of my family. That's why I graduated in electronical engineering. My master thesis is in robotics in Berkeley. So nothing related to space. Then the destiny is destiny. So what that really happened is that once I was in Shenzhen in China presenting one startup that I was working with actually that I founded when I was 24 and I was pitching I was this pitch event in ancient and in

3:03Shenzhen in 2016 there were nothing. It was like just an empty city with just few buildings. So there were not at all there was not so many things to do at night. So I was going to the rooftop to having a beer and I met this guy that start we started talking for the whole week and at some point this guy was saying that he was starting this company to caretake about logistic in space and I don't know if it was because of the beers or because of anything else I was very interested I said okay this guy is crazy I like him and after a few days I came back to Italy and he called me and say hey what if you join the orbit in this crazy experience with me. The that person was Lucaro Septini who is the founder of the orbit and we met so in

3:502016 2017 a lot of years ago anyway and I was so enthusiastic about his approach to the space and approach to the industry that I decided to give up on my promise on not working in space and so I accepted the offer and I joined the orbit so now eight years ago now nine years ago and that's how it started. That is phenomenal. And you could have a separate podcast just about that seed and scenario, but we we've got a script to go to. We we got a dedicated amount of time. So again, and other people I've spoken with as well, it almost seems like it's meant to be. The synchronicities are just phenomenal. And same situation with you. The synchronicity. You were like, "No, I'm going to take my path. I'm not going

4:37going to go down what the family tradition is, which is space, aerospace. I'm going to be my own person, do me my own thing. But then whatever you want to call it, synchronicity, karma, serendipity, it had its own way to bring you back on track to do great things. And >> yeah, that's actually the definition of serend. >> It's just phenomenal. I love it. I love it. But let me get back on back on because I didn't even know that story. So what was what was the route into the industry? Because obviously you mentioned that you met with the founder. So I guess that was literally the route. You started from day one, ground zero from the from the imagination, the concept into reality. >> Yes. When I joined the orbit was 25

5:25people pretty much. So we were still far from our first mission. The new space economy was just something written on papers. But no one really needed about know nothing about the the new space. Everybody was feeling there was a new era coming but actually no one knew nothing about it. So the market was to build no customers at all, no market at all, no platform at all. We never launched a satellite until that moment. So was everything from scratch not for the company itself but from the market that we are going that we were going to target >> create creating something from nothing. Some people may say you guys are true manifestors but hey what do I know? I absolutely I love

6:11that. I love that so much. So what does being a director of orbital access actually involve? >> Let's say that there are so many things involving it. So it's probably one hour won't be enough but I will try to I will try to to get straight to the point. So the main part is of course to be sure that we're always line with the market needs. We always need to be on the edge to propose the service that really the space market needs in space. And how do so? Of course, with the sales team that is always able to follow everything that changes very quickly with a delivery team that once we have our customers that wants to reach their target, they support as much as they can in order to

6:56make our customers happy. And then of course the product part so development and validization that are sure that the platform that we build the orbital transfer ve that we build really is able to do what we promise to the market. So there are these three main pillars that allows us to to to always fit the real market need that that that we see and being leading all these three areas means a lot of problems but at this at the same times a lot of opportunities to increase a lot of import opportunities to invent something new and propose something new that before the other so it's it's really how can I say it's really inspiring because you see all the aspect ects of a space mission and all the aspect of a growth of a market and

7:43really needed to think day by day how to be always on the edge and always to be ready to answer to the needs that all our customers have. >> Absolutely love it. And what does a normal week look like? A normal day or I'm guessing in your position nothing's normal. Everything's innovating and changing. >> Actually the target is to have a one week which is the same than the than the previous week. So having two weeks which are very similar in a row, it's already something that would be a really nice target. But not jokes apart, let's say that we try we I start the Monday that if we don't have any emergency until the first hours of the morning, it's your it's already something which is very positive because of course we always look to the missions that we will have

8:29to do but in the at the same time we also have missions in orbit. So we need to be sure that the fleet that is in orbit is working properly then we don't have issues there. Then we need to work on the missions that are already on the pad. So if I if the team is in the launch campaign or working with our suppliers or integrating our customers and then also building the strategy for the future all the partnership that we need to be sure that are uh that are always at the right place and they can support at the right moment like launchers. launchers is is what really need we need to get to space without launchers we cannot get to space so the relationship with them is fundamental so it's one part then of course talking with sales then aligned with the theme

9:14every time like once per month we make an alignment with all the team in order to be sure that we are all in line on our vision so it's really tough to explain this the week itself but I can explain pretty much the the flow of the month of doing these new Been in a lot of place. Been in a lot of place and I commend you for that. Maybe difficult for you to answer this question, but what's exciting you the most in terms of a project or a department or a new breakthrough? What kinds of sparks of excitement are you most enjoying at the moment? What excites me the most is when I see the world team working together towards an objective that is usually

10:00making our customer happy and manage to success in doing so. So when I see that we worked all together to do something that we don't know because of course space is unknown so it's always something new and when I see that we really hit the what we wanted to do and our customers is enthusiast is enthusiastic this is really what makes me happy because it means that we are working in the right direction and then that we are building something that is making the difference for the market and at the end of the day what we want to do is to allow the the space market to So we don't do this for ourself. We do this for the community. >> And who are your typical customers? >> So our customers are maybe of two main categories probably more but just to to

10:46give you a real understanding. The first one is who builds constellation of satellites because who builds constellations of satellites so that they propose services to to ground to earth. They need to pace these satellites on space and just having these satellites built and launched in a cluster in a specific point means that it takes a lot of time for the theiration to start providing the service. So >> our customer come to us because through through our orbital transfer vele we're able to face their constellation in specific orbital slot so that they can start providing the service as soon as possible and this is the first kind of customer. The second kind of customer is actually instead of who wants to test their technology because they don't want

11:31to spend too much time or money in building a platform and launching a platform they just build their technology their asset they bring it to us we integrate it in our orbital transfer vehicle so that once the mission of the customer one type is over. So once we all the satellites are placed we use our OTV our satellite as a real bus we give power and all our resources to the technology so that we can test it and also we can accelerate the growth of for instance on ground. So those are the two main pillars. Then of course we have a lot of other different kind of customers but those two are the main one. The first one is so accelerate the business >> daily business of big companies and the other one is to accelerate the growth of smaller companies that need to something

12:18in space to show and to go to next phase. >> Absolutely love it. Now we're going to move it slightly. We're going to be talking about getting into space isn't the end of the journey. So with most people or me, I think what this is what I think and this is as far as my knowledge goes, which is why I'm so curious about the the fantastic thing things you guys are doing. So I just think you build the satellite, you put a satellite on, the rocket launches, and that's it. The job's done. That's as far as my knowledge goes. But that's increasingly not the whole story. So what if you can explain us what actually happens after a satellite reaches space? >> Okay. So once the satellite reach the

13:05space as first there are always no matter how many missions you've done so far but there will always be the operational team which is waiting to hear the first signal from the satellite to be sure that it's alive. So >> so is everybody holding the breath? >> Yes. I tell you the moment when everybody they hear the beep say okay the first part is really done. So at least we know that the satellite is sound and safe which is the fur the baseline to start than the rest of the mission and once we start we know that our for instance our ion our orbital transfer ve will use it as an example once I am tells us hey guys I'm okay then we start over it so we take the first week pretty much to test all the systems on board the satellite to be

13:51sure that everything was works properly and then we start our mission starting our mission means that we serve maneuvering going to specific to specific slots. Maneuvering means that there is a team that day and night is following our satellite sends commands to maneuvering and to maneuver it and to be sure that we go in the direction that we want to go. >> Love it. So all of these then once the satellites are released in our case always our operations team keeps playing with the satellite and uploading data and downloading data that are helpful for us to see how the satellite is behaving because this helps us also to make improvement for the future and also downloading data from the technology of

14:37our partners and customers so that we can share this with them then can they can analyze their data and come back to us maybe proposing new way of operating their technology so that they can collect more information. So it's a it's a kind of characterization of the technology that we have in orbit and >> is that real time sorry is that real time the data come through or is a lag of minutes hours >> on what the the customer needs. If our partners needs to have just the data but that we collected we can sometimes we always we it can happen also that we operate for one week and then at some point we download all the data and we share this with them. Then we have other kind of customer that they need uh data much more quickly and so in this case we

15:23operate iron in a way that we are able to provide them quickly. We are still not in the real time but I guess that this will be the next the next step in space because at some point we are working also on this through our our space cloud because what we want to do we want to start making analysis of the data directly in orbit. So usually when you download the data then there is a post-processing happening on ground but in the next phase we want to start this uh uh this processing of data directly in space so that we can download just the information that the market that our customer or our partners is really looking for. This will allow to save a lot of time and a lot of data and a lot of money for download and this is what we want to achieve. Okay. And question,

16:10what problem does an orbital transfer vehicle solve? >> This solves the problem of having all the satellites which are in orbit that are not optimal for their mission. >> Okay. >> Launching a satellite or launching a constellation of satellite as you said before happens through a rocket. So you just take all of these satellites, you put them on a rocket, the rocket launches, then release the satellites and the mission as you were saying is over. No, because the because if then you have all these satellites in a cluster, it means that they cannot really have the visit time on ground exactly how is needed for their service. And also the orbital parameters in term

16:57of altitude or a shending node may not be perfect according to what they want to reach. So how do they change the orbit that they reach? There are two ways. The first one they purchase a huge rocket they put the satellites and they decide where to go but it's crazy expensive and then you also need to have this critical mass to optimize the investment. So maybe not all the company are ready since day one to launch 20 satellites because it's like it's gradual. >> Yeah. How you can do that? You use an OTV. So you put your satellites rather than directly on the rocket. You put them on TV on on TV on an orbital transfer veagel. Then you place you put the orbital transfer ve on the rocket. Once the real transfer of bagel is

17:44released, we make the maneuver and we reach the final orbit that they need and then we release the satellites there. So just to recap everything, the OTV allows our customer to save money and purchase time so that they they're they can reach their operative condition much before with respect to any other solution. >> Love it. Another question is, does a satellite operator realize that they need the de orbit? So, a satellite operator, when would they know they need the orbit or before or or after a drawing? That's a really nice question because it's actually the question that we asked ourself a lot when we were trying to

18:30build this market because of course for most of the satellite operators they know that the standard way is just to use a rocket to reach the orbit. So no one thinks about using an orbital transfer vehicle because it's not the standard solution that the market is still used to. Usually they understand it, they should understand it because it's not always so so straightforward when they plan the mission. There are a lot of cost that they that they face when building the mission when building the program and they always look to the all the satellite operator look to the launch as a cost. No one is still no now yes but in the past no one was used to look to the launch like an investment using anot TV is when you decide that

19:16the launch is not only a cost but it becomes part of your business plan because by using anotv it's true that you increase your investment at the beginning that you earn more money during the time because rather because you can improve a lot of things so you spend more at the beginning to earn more on the long run. This is not for everybody because of course there are other companies that prefer to invest less because maybe less risk adverse or for any reason that their finance office decide really makes sense. They decide to invest less maybe to not reach the perfect condition because the condition that they're reach is anyway good enough for the level of service that they want to provide. >> Yeah, maybe. So I would say that the a company as a delight operators decide to

20:04use anot TV when they want to go to the sustainable innovation of the service that they provide. So when they want to reach the 100% of their potential they are in the position to invest and make the real difference with the OTV. >> Thank you. That actually makes sense to me. I'm a slow learner. Sorry that makes that that eloquently put. Thank you very much. Now on to the next point. Are we building the DHL of space? So what I mean by this is on earth uh global commerce uh couldn't function without enormous logistics infrastructure. So you know we have ports, we've got aircrafts, we got trucks, we've got warehouses, distribution centers, uh last minute delivery.

20:50Is this where we're heading towards? obviously is going to take a lot of time, manpower, foresight, innovation, but is this where we're heading towards or or I don't know. I would say that all that you said is like the first step. Yeah. I mean, for sure it will take time to have this infrastructure so ready, but at the end of the day, according to what we can build in space, it's really the first step. >> I always make this example when I have this kind of discussion. Let's think about like you are in your house now you want to go out there is a street there is the red light there is the signal there are cars there are a lot of things that allows you to go from a point A to point B but all of this has been built

21:37probably ages ago there were only sands there and now there is cities there are cities there are a lot of things there are highways so it took time but now we live on earth and everything is connected well connected and the logistics works very Well, so the last mile delivered in space is really the first step we want to do. So we are doing so but why we stop our fantasy there? Why we don't think about when in space there will be a lot of assets like recycling? Why we still think about launching satellites? Maybe at some point it going to be much easier to build satellite satellites directly in space through the recycling of the old one and manufacturing area for the new one. This is just an example of how many things that we can do in space. So we

22:24are heading there. We are through but it is just a way of validate technologies that will always push to the next steps. And another example are the space stations. Now there are a lot of private space station that are trying to be built. So there will be cargo >> access going to as the space station would be much easier than than than today. Right? Today we are used that just astronauts from NAZA to go to the space stations but maybe in 10 15 years it's going to be will be very easy to go like also just for commercial uh for meetings we we can have a meeting on a space station very specific meeting but there are so many things that we can do in space and what we are building is the first step of all of the things that we

23:10can reach. >> Love it. You've answered quite a few of me other questions, so I'm going to skip to this this next one. Is uh what does a m >> Sorry for that. >> No, no, this is great. This is great. Um what does a mature space logistics ecosystem actually look like? >> I think that uh um it's like taking a flight. If you want to lo to to go from New York to San Francisco, you just go to the airport or just go with the website and you look to the flight that makes more sense for you. >> Yeah. >> If we think about space, it's not that easy today because you need to look which are the launches >> if the rockets have enough editage

23:55because you are putting your your investment your satellites on a rocket. So you want to be sure that it's reliable. So there are still many things that doesn't make that doesn't allow to think about space missions as taking a flight. But what I imagine in time is that when that everybody will be able to launch their own satellite and they will not mind too much about how the satellite gets to space but they will they will be thinking about how to use their asset to use their asset in space because getting there is just a commodity. is just part of something which is very standard today. If you want to ship something from you to to your friend's house which is on the the other part of the world, you don't mind if they ship it through land with n with

24:41a cargo with an airplane or just if there's someone swimming building your box, holding your box, you don't mind because you just take for granted that your box will get to your friend's house. >> Exactly. And I think that as a space logistic company, we want to drive the world and the space sector to think about a space mission in this way. Love it. Thank you. Next one. We're going to go and talk beyond delivery servicing in orbit. So this is about service. This is about thinking about the the future. So if we can explore in orbit servicing is this something that has been talked about a lot or is it just way too immature at the moment that the sector to talk about in orbit servicing? I

25:28think that we are not far from having our first in orbit servicing. For instance, for the orbit, we will have our first inorbit mission in a couple of years in orbit servicing mission in a couple of years. And this is a real market and this is real something that is going to change the approach about geostationary satellites because one thing that is worth mentioning in orbital access we take care of space logistics but as of now we are very focused on the LEO. So the low part the low orbits but there are just stationary satellites which are huge very big and the investment to bring them there is crazy is super high and every time that you need to change this asset it requires a lot of time and a lot of

26:14investment. The in orbit servicing as we intend in orbit servicing with our missions is to build a satellite a cargo which is in space and is able to provide services to this satellite so that they can have their life long that last longer. For instance, if there is a satellite the end of life because of missing because the fuel run out, we are able to go there and refuel the satellite so that they can keep operating. So it means that the asset that they have in orbit has a much longer life with respect to what we are used to we were used to think before and this is just an example of how the orbit servicing will work. For instance other satellites which just ended their life they need to leave this lot and how can

27:00leave this lot. They potentially must use the last the the propellant that is lasting that they have remaining to make a maneuver and go at that orbit. But of course doing so it's reducing the operational time of the satellite. What he said if they use the wall life of the satellite then they arrives we arrive and we take the satellite we grab the satellite and we bring it to that orbit is a part of a service that can help the operators on ground to have their slot free to launch the following satellite. So the servicing is something that is really it will really make the difference on how this J stationary mission are. There will also be some application to low orbit. But this is my personal point of view is less

27:46straightforward than less intuitive with respect to geo. >> Right. Okay. So we're going to shift it again slightly now. We're going to talk about the economics of orbital transportation if you can provide some information. So on the business side, who are the customers for orbital transportation? >> You mean you want to know the names? No, not the names just like the sectors the sectors who would the the customers be. >> Okay. So the kind of customers we have several customers and several type of customers we have a lot of earth observation operators because earth observations needs to observe something. Yeah. >> And working in some synchronous orbit

28:31requires you to be in positions that are also related to the sun. So it means that if you're in a specific orbit, you will pass through a specific area in a specific time every day at the same time. >> This means that just changing the orbit and the ascending node. So the point in which is met changes the area that you observe and the time of the day in which you're observing that that that that area. So our customers of earth observation requires a lot our services because in this way they can reach specific orbits that allow them to observe the area that they want to see and this is really I cannot tell you of course which kind of

29:17area but >> I understand but that's the point >> actually I've got a bit of a curveball question something that you probably may not be able to to answer this. Let's say I'm a billionaire. me I'm a billionaire and I say I get in contact with you and I'm say Matteo I just want to launch a satellite because I'm a billionaire and I want my own satellite on there I want to observe whatever I want to observe is there restrictions around a civilian yes I'm a billionaire but being classed as a civilian to work with a company and say I want to launch a satellite because I want to do some earth obser observation. >> So

30:02>> if you can't answer that that's fine. >> I can answer in the sense that I will give you like a transparent qu a transparent answer >> at the end of the day >> how you can spot a satellite on space that is looking to something. So there are some regulations that you need to respect of course and everybody respect these these regulations. At the end of the day we are getting there but we are not still there to have a full awareness of what's going on around the ground around the her which means that the answer the political answer is no. You can't but the real the point is that as of today it's really tough to spot who is doing so. So in

30:49time would be easier because of course there are techn there are there is actually a business around this. There are a lot of companies which are investing to build satellites that can spot their satellites and see what they're doing. Of course there are also defense applicant. Yeah. So that that just came into my head. I was just thinking, oh, if someone's a billionaire, could they just literally just go and launch? But as you mentioned, the regulations and there's ways to potentially spot an anomaly which should not be there, which was that should again my my personal best. >> Let's say that anyway the resolution then there is a limit on the resolution that you can have on earth. So then the privacy from a revelation point of view

31:35is always respected. There are other applications where actually you want to spot anomalies. There are companies that for instance wants to monitor they want to moni to to monitor if there are fires because in this way they can be quicker in sending the alarm to the authority so that they can intervene. So you want them actually to have the the right the right resolution and the right uh view on that specific point. So it really depends on the application itself which is something that of course you need to declare when you launch a satellite. >> Yeah. And onto the next topic which is hot topic for this sector which is sustainability space debris. Everyone's talking about it saying it's great we're advancing but with this advancement there's always a

32:21tradeoff and the tradeoff is debris sustainability going into what happens to everything we put up there. So, how serious, if you can answer this, is the orbital debris problem? >> It's for sure a problem. But because the point is that is an accident. If two satellites crashes, the issue is not the two satellites. It's all the debris that these satellites are going to go. The breeze goes everywhere and they can hit then other satellites. So, it's like a domino effect. So, what you want to do is to avoid to have to have a situation like this. And there are a lot of regulation now. So for instance a lot of regulation is too much but there are some regulations on that. For instance now when we launch a satellite we are

33:08forced to declare that once the operation of our satellite is over we have we will deorbit the satellite in 5 years and when I joined this sector so eight years ago the limit was 25 years. So just to show you that in in in few years the limitation went from 25 to 5 years which means that there is a lot of interest and a lot of attention on this topic. >> Yeah. I guess that leads me into another question within the question. Is that 25 to five because of technology has got better to resolve the problem and is it because we want to put more things out there? We need to clear it up faster.

33:54I think maybe the first one but according to experience I would say the second one. >> The the the number of satellites we is increasing year by year. there is a a growth and and so the things in space are always more more and more. Also the launchers are always more and more and more. Every year there are like three four new companies that want to build rockets. It means that everybody see a huge market there. And once we have so many things in space of course once the operations are done they need to the orbit and I think that at some point five years will always be too much probably. we will be required to gain me even less time and this reduce the risk of having of having events that can

34:39multiply the breeze and lose control of them. >> Perfect. Thank you very much and once again we are flying through these questions. You are a true professional. [laughter] So this now leads me into the next side of it which is the space supply chain of 2020 of 2040. So if we can fast forward ourselves to 2040 thousands more crafts are operating around Earth and potentially beyond it. What does the infrastructure look like? Could we see orbital transfer vehicles, servicing spacecrafts, refueling infrastructure at de- orbit? When you're at the war room, the mastermind group

35:26with yourself and your seniors, do you look to like 2040 and do you have this kind of vision of what the infrastructure would look like by say 2040, 2050? So I think that the infrastructure will it is the answer to your question. So it's not how the infrastructure will look like is the fact that there will be an infrastructure and I'm really curious to be honest. I think that I'm not expert enough to to tell you what can look in 2040 2050 but what I believe is that there will be an infrastructure that will allow the satellites to be less because why someone build a satellite because they want they want to

36:12provide something they want to provide services but how many services you can provide >> let's say 1,000 okay but in 25 years from Now I think that there would be more than 1,000 companies build working in space. So it means that >> why don't we think about the possibility of having less satellites which are more which are like multitasking as in an infrastructure than then can provide all of these services. This is just a lens like which I like because it's the one that I always mention when I discuss in the infrastructure. It's something that needs to always also in mind that the sustainability that you were mentioning before we need to think about something that reduce the debris

36:58that reduce the the that it's like let's say let me tell it in another way I think it's really important for us to find a solution to reduce the debris and therefore to maximize what you put in space and the answer for me is the infrastructure. So that's when I talk also about recital this is an infrastructure because you're building something that can can be sustainable in space and then can provide to provide service to ground and service to space. So this is what I see in 2040. I do not expect a situation like today just multiply by 1,000. I just see a shift towards using more the asset that is already in space to invent

37:45new things and to think about new new and to unlock new potentials. Love it. Love it. Thank you for that. I'm going to shift again and move now. We're going to move to careers and opportunities. Obviously, I'm in a recruitment game for DE orbit. We obviously recruit within the the space aerospace sector. One of the missions for the Space Co podcast is showing people that spa the space industry isn't just for astronauts, isn't just for specialist pilots, isn't just for astrophysicists and people talking about quantum physics, quantum tanglement and all the crazy stuff. It's for everyday people. So what I'm seeing and again just having the conversation with you the careers the new this

38:32industry is creating is more engineers in different areas propulsion guidance navigation and control software AI auton autonomy mission operations manufacturing project management is there other of this industry that you've seen because I would say you was pretty much at the start of this whole sector. Are the what's the word? Are the jobs that have evolved now that you've seen that was not there when you first started and what do you think the next evolution of jobs may be? That's a really nice point of view because actually now while you

39:17were talking I realized that when I joined the space sector I only met engineers. I'm an engineer too but everybody was engineer founders were engineers CTO of course were engineers >> CFO chief of finance were engineers as well >> because the space was just for engineers other space >> engineers >> when instead now I'm seeing that there is a huge movement because people the world start feeling the space sector as a normal se normal in the sense like any an everyday sector as maybe mechanics or automotive And so it's for finance people, is for creative people, marketing people, communication people. It's we are building an ecosystem which

40:02is a real ecosystem that is that is including all the figures that like until 8 years ago were not so straightforward. So yes, that's true. There is a shift on the figures that work on this on this in this sector. And I think that this is going to increase even more thanks to the AI. For instance, there are like >> so many applications that doesn't require you anymore to be an engineer. But probably it's more important that you know how to talk with a machine. It's probably it's crazy. I don't I don't know if it's fun or not to be honest. But anyway, it's shifting the way of working. I don't know how to code but still I can set up a lot of things using using AI for coding. So this is something that will allow a lot of

40:49people to join new sectors like the space sectors. So I think that we will see an always diff an always more different figures working for this and I also do expect new positions a new way of working that today we can even think about it. Yeah, exactly. And one thing that I want to highlight is when we were speaking off camera last week, one thing that that I said and I stand by and I mentioned it quite a lot is I believe companies like D de Orbit and visionaries like yourself are saving the job market. And what I mean about that is I come from obviously I've been in recruitment for decades now and I've seen a huge shift. I came from the big

41:34ERP recruitment. I won't mention the companies, but for big heavy systems and then put them into working with huge consultancies. And I've seen jobs 5,000 jobs go, 6,000 jobs go, 8,000 jobs go, another 2,000 jobs go here. And it's been very sobering to see the amount of jobs just being wiped out overnight. And I think the great thing about what you're doing, what D orbit do are doing is you're innovating and creating at the same time because the larger your company gets, the more success you have, what you what will you have to do? You're going to have to recruit. You're going to have to hire. So I think this the space industry is going to sweep up

42:20and help a lot of people who are very skilled in engineering and technical or consulting or other jobs that you've mentioned as well but there will be a segue a transferable skill so they can apply for deorbit and obviously not be worried about finding the job in that same sector. So again to anyone listening audience out there as well if you are in that situation I think looking into the space sector maybe not now if you're not in that situation but in the not too distant future to look for that kind of segway transferable skill because I just see I see so many jobs out there and it's for me again preach converted but I'm just biased and

43:07I think this is such an awesome sector. It's creating so many new jobs, so many new ways of thinking. Technology has been discovered in more ways than we could have ever imagined the only even 5 years ago. So that's my thing about yourself and company the company >> and I agree with you and for quoting something that I said before at the beginning of our discussion if you think about the that the when you make the example with the HL right and I told you that I imagine that at some point there will be the space will be like the the her so which the equivalent of streets and red light. Think about also not only the jobs but also the new sector that a big ecosystem like this one can be

43:53created. So there are so many which it's impossible to think. Think about also advertising. >> Yes. This is this could potentially create huge a huge market in space and only the advertising in space can change thousands of job title and job and roles because there will always be something new >> and this is also what is very exciting and and I'm happy because it's somehow it's like it's true that at some in under some lenses I see the AI a bit scary because it's true that it's helping humans but it's also making some uh jobs less important because they can be done from something else. But at the same point, if you you if we use it in

44:41the right way, we actually are in the position to get even more job position for people. So it's just a way of how we use it and I'm sure that in the orbit but in the space sector and I hope the the world kind is going to use the eye in this way just not to sub substitute people but actually to give people the opportunity to do something always new. >> Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So we're going to we're going to move on now from this the future supply side from the career side. We're going to move on now to myth busting as we're coming to a close with this conversation. So, regular space question to yourself, what's one myth about space or a particular part of the

45:27space industry that you'd love to myth bust? What are you hearing? What do people say? What do they think? >> So, can you repeat the question you said? >> Yeah. So, yeah. So, myth busting, what do people say? for example, the moon isn't the the moon's not the moon's not what the well people said now I've seen the moon's not solid. So what what kind of myth would you love to bust or say what people talk about space and it's like no that's not true this is the actual fact like I I met a lot of people that's saying very different things like about hurt about that we've never been to the moon or death Mars doesn't exist or whatever right and actually it's when

46:14they talk with me at some point what I always tell them is guys it's my job so if you don't believe in just come to my office and I show you that we build satellites and somewhere we launch these satellite somewhere and no jokes apart it's I believe that it's okay that there are some situ situations like this because at the end of the day does this always allow us to show that there is something more that we can do >> and so yeah that's pretty much that's pretty much the the what I believe is uh I understand that there are people that don't believe in something but at the end of the day Our role is also to convince people on on what is true. >> Yeah, exactly. And with raw data, you can't argue with that. [laughter] >> Yes, indeed. I I see my satellites that

47:01that do the orbit in around the the earth. So, I saw them. So, how can I tell them that it's not true? But >> exactly. Exactly. So, we'll move on now. We spoke about a future, the future of space again. The f everybody wants to know about the future. But my question is 10 20 years ahead from now what would you personally if you allowed to say if you can say this what would you want to change the orbit want to change or excel in the next 10 20 years I would say that the orbit it's it is impossible to say what we can do in 20 years because we apply a bit of cathedral thinking they think that you build something And probably you will

47:47not be able to see what's at the end because it's going to be happening so many years that that will be after you. >> Yeah. >> What I believe it's the the mission that we have now is to allow the humankind to be able to take advantage of the space. There's not only the hurt. There are planets ecosystems like solar systems. There are so many things and what we must do is to enable the companies and the sector to always aim to something farther. So this is what really the orbits must do. It's not about building only building logistics.

48:34It's building the path for everybody to always thinking about the next step and how much farther we can still go. Because if we think about a target, we reach the target and then we stop. And I think that in space exploration in general, there's not a target to reach. It's just a step that we do for who will come after. >> Yeah. Expansive or fract like a fractal pattern. It just keeps going and going and we're all and I think without trying to sound too philosophical I think because we're like we're expansive beings and we're we've got all got fractal with within us with within when you zoom in and you're looking at atoms and the cells and stuff like that. I think that's why we keep going because

49:19it's that spark within us that keeps wanting to go beyond and beyond. So yeah, I completely agree with you because I I think and what you've created and creating is far beyond our lifetime and will keep going for generations generations to come and continue to. >> And it's like if you think about it, it's it's actually the the baseline of who works in space because it's not easy to work every day on something that you cannot you can Yeah. You can see but you cannot feel. I don't know where my sudden it goes and how to behave when they are in orbit right I don't see them and so if who whoever works in the space sectors works for something which is

50:06unknown and so is the curiosity for the unknown that pushes everything >> and so likely we will never stop about >> being curious or what >> yeah absolutely love it we mate we're going to go into the quick fire round just simple questions I'm just going to throw a couple of words to you and you're just going to answer it as quickly as possible. So, it's just a quick bit of fun. So, first quick fire round is moon or Mars? >> Mars. >> Leo or lunar orbit? >> Leo for now. >> Rockets or satellites? Human or autonomous spacecraft? >> You [laughter] start. >> Was that human then?

50:52>> Human. >> Okay. Reusable rockets or reusable spacecraft? >> Reusable rocket. >> Do you have a favorite space mission? Or you can say one of your own one of your own missions that you've done or one of your own projects. >> So in in history I do have a preferred mission and I also have my favorite favorite mission in in the orbit. So one which one of the two you want to know? >> Let's go with the orbit. So my favorite mission in Yurbin is the one is called SCV3 that free >> S space carrier vessel. So SC CV >> Oh free >> that we launched in June 21 >> and I'm particularly related to the

51:39mission because at that years I was I was in the sales team and this was our third mission. So no one was still aware of of ION and our services and there was the COVID it was a COVID time. >> So we found ourself in this in this situation where we had this mission to launch but no customers and no way of traveling because of the co and I spent literally three months over the phone. >> Wow. and we ended up having the mission that still today marks the highest number of different nationality on board that satellite. So I was super proud of that and I still and it's still my favorite mission because we were thought that would have been like a disaster and

52:27at the end of the day and if you look through the patch of the mission there are so many flags that I don't even know all the countries yet. was very important because we showed like the orbit show to the orbit to ourself that actually we could do a lot of things and and the effort was somehow worth it. Oh yeah, that that's my story. >> That is beautiful. Love it. >> Most under most underrated space technology. >> I think that the common sense is that now in the last year changed but at the beginning the orbiting technologies were all everybody was looking to the orbiting technologies like okay they do but who really knows if at some point they will be used. While he said now

53:12with the new regulation everybody start thinking about having the orbiting technologies which is something that justify why a lot of researchers spend time on this. So at the beginning was really underrated but now it's it's becoming I hope that it will become more more used. >> It will one space history could be current past present that you would love to have dinner with. >> Love it. the commander of the Apollo 13. >> Love it. Absolutely love it. Okay. If you could travel anywhere in the solar system tomorrow, where would you be going? >> Mars. Love it. Space in 2050.

53:59optimistic or are you cautious or are you slightly terrified what space would look like in 20150? Optimistic. >> Love it. One final question. So, let's finish by traveling into the future. Matteo, imagine someone discovers this very episode 20 years from now. They listen to everything we've discussed about orbital transportation, servicing spacecraft, building infrastructure beyond Earth. What's one thing we've discussed today that you think they will hear and say they could see it coming? You've

54:45achieved it. >> I think 20 years you said. >> Yes. 20 years from now. I think the the manufacturing need in space. I think maybe not of a huge asset of a total asset but I think that manufactur something in space in 20 years from now will be possible. >> Love it. Love it. Absolutely love it. We have come to the close. Before I leave you to your evening, I know you're going a million miles an hour. You've got all things going. Is there any other way or people can reach with you, connect with you, you know, LinkedIn, any papers that you've done? >> You can find me on LinkedIn, which is

55:30the social network that I use the most >> because I connect with a lot of people. I do mentoring to to student university to to students. So, LinkedIn is a social that I use a lot and I will always answer. >> Okay. So, what I'll do is I'll put obviously a link to LinkedIn. And I'll put the Orbit's website on there as well so people can reach out to you and speak with you. Again, Matt, it's been absolutely a pleasure speaking with you. You are fantastic. Everything that you talk about, your enthusiasm, your passion, your knowledge, your drive, the serendipity that's actually brought you to this very moment is just beyond belief. And I absolutely love it. When you guys listeners, when you when you have a destiny in life,

56:16it it just gets put upon you. And Matteo's one of those people who even though he was going to go and wanted to go into a different path, a different direction, he took the curiosity and went with what was in your heart and what your true love is. We will close on that unless you've got anything else to say. >> I want to to thank you so much for having me here. It has been really a very nice conversation and I hope to talk with you and to meet you as soon as possible. And I want to thank everybody that has been listening what I said. And of course, as I was mentioning, I'm always available to to reply to any other questions that that that will be asked to me.